I've been having an internal battle with YT's old forum software for about 4 or 5 years. The rest of the internet world has moved on to the more modern software with all it's bells and whistles. But the problem with the new forum software available these days, as I see it, is the registration process. Oh, it's painless at first glance, but when you happen upon a forum and get the urge to express yourself or ask a question, you find that you have to jump through hoops to fill out a form, register, wait for a password to be sent to you via email, then click a link, type in a secret code and finally become a registered user. By that time I've forgotten what I want to say!
I would venture to say that YT's discussion forums are the most highly trafficked on the internet that do not require a person to register. Sure, there are a few other sites out there in www land that use the older forum software. But they don't have a huge amount of traffic and it seems no one is bothering to remove the spam and advertisements.
What YT has (thanks to our background in computer programming) is the option to register your "handle" or name in the forums. What happened is our forums were so open and friendly that once in a while a "ne're do well" would post a derogatory message and say he was "Joe from Illinois". Well the real Joe from Illinois would never say such a thing and is appalled that all the world attributes the derogatory message to him. So... YT made it an option that you can set a password on a particular "handle" or name and no one else can ever post as you. For example, I have voluntarily registered and password protected "Kim". Only I can post using that name.
People who are new to the forums though can post a message if they want without registering, waiting for a password to be sent via email, etc. Just today I received an email from a fellow that was requesting my help in the forums. He has never posted a message in any discussion forum and hadn't a clue what to do. Luckily, I was able to tell him what link to click on and told him to just type a message and click on the "Submit" button. The fellow didn't even need an email account to receive a "secret password".
We have quite a few members in our community that like the simplicity of the forums. On the other hand, we get quite a few complaints from the younger folks who think us old farts must be living on Mars. They are looking for all the bells and whistles and the "bumping" newly replied to message so the top of the list etc. I hate to lose their interest but DARN it's real hard to please everyone. Old-timers (sorry for the terminology) may remember that I've tried to do that twice. Twice I've tried to migrate the forums to the newer software. The first time it was darn-right mutiny. People complained, packed their virtual bags and left. That was an eye opener for me and I wasted no time bring the old forum software back.
The second time I tried to upgrade the forum software it was received a little better, but still about 50% said "stop messing with a good thing". Again, for a second time, I scraped the new forum software and went back to the archaic but comfortable "wwwboard" software that has been around for 10 years and outdated for at least 5.
I'm not sure what to do at this point. Do we just keep using the old software, patching it when it breaks, and ignore new technology as it moves on without us? I'm worried about losing the young people. Who will look after our tractors when we are too feeble to post forum messages? The young people have spoken and say they want the new forum software. The older set (yes that includes me) prefers the old software. Part of the purpose of the YT site is to keep these old tractors going from generation to generation. How do we bridge the two, software speaking?
I have a few ideas but will have to present them later. I think we are going to have to compromise on both sides. Meanwhile, I'm actually proud to see that we are still able to have such a vibrant virtual community using our old software. And I see people in their 70's and 80's being able to post messages because the process is simple. No registration, no password (unless you choose to have one).
Part of my responsibility though is to make sure YT doesn't die off with the generation that founded it. I'd like some opinions and comments on how to move into the newer technology without losing the confidence of the older crowd.
43 comments:
Kim, as you know I have been around for a long time. I think I was around 16 (23 now) when I first came to YT. Back in those days when I went to live chat now I just hang out on tales. I still plead innocent for the troubles that happened there so very long ago in the old live chat room. :) As one of the younger folks...though not as young as some I don't have any problems with the current software. Sure sometimes it would be nice to insert a little smiley face. But, that’s now what YT is for. I think the current software gets the job done. I believe it is very important that those older folks who didn't grow up with computers like I did, can easily post a message on YT. For, they are the ones that usually have the answers to us younger folks problems. I give credit for YT for giving me a part of the knowledge I have of old tractors. Thanks again Kim. Matt...Formally JD Kid
If it ain't broke, don't fix it comes to my mind. I am still using bond issue software that has not basically changed in 20 years. It doesn't do everything but it does a lot of my work very well and very quickly. I can analyze up to 20 issues a day. Our competitors have the fancy software that usually takes a half a day to analyze one issue. The reports are next to impossible to read. But they call that progress, LOL
The Red
It works for me but I think its to bad that people dont like change. I like change its neat. I am sure there was people that didnt like the idea of riding on air when steel wheels worked well enough. How about when they styled tractors in 1939. Kim just do what you need to do I am sure the flock will follow.
Kim, I'm getting to be an old fart too (45) but don't mind the newer software. It will make site management a LOT easier and you can keep people from posting spam much easier. I don't care which one you use, I'm fine with either one. I know johnnypopper changed software and ran off some people because they couldn't figure it out and he had some problems with it. If you don't make it too tough, allow people to store a password in a cookie, etc. it should be fine.
Kerry
This is a good forum format.
http://www.dune-buggy.com/
I registered for Wheel Horse site once and for a week I recieved a Email of EVERY post. Not just replies to mine. The moderator finally just removed my registration.
You are right about it being a pain to register though. That is why I write these anon.
Rick in IN
Hi kim
I'm getting to that old fart age to a young 49,but i know us old farts will adjust.Maybe you could put some instrustions how to respond to a form .But it needs to be handy to use and see.Still did like your old chat room,but i did adjust too. thanks
I think the majority of folks tend to resist change when they're comfortable with what they know.How many times have you heard"These new cars/trucks are a pain,Ya just can't work on em no more with all the electronics/computers etc".Fact is that you don't HAVE to tune em up every few thousand miles or pray their gonna start when it's cold or swappin it off by 70-80K mi before it's dies of fatigue.Change is usually for the better but it's not comfortable until you get used to it,kinda like breakin in new boots :) If you need to upgrade,thats a fact of life,just keep it simple as possible and we'll adapt in time.
Please, Please, Please do not change. I hang out at Forestry Forum sometimes. I would post there more often but it is such a (*^^*$&!@ pain to use the forum.
And since you don't hear it enough, you are doing a good job with this web site.
Make the change. People will complain if you give them the chance and regardless of what they tell you most folks want to follow a leader anyways. I am quickly getting to be one of these older folks and I think I have figured out that the only thing that is constant in this life is change. If I gave up everything that I was comfortable with I would still be carrying around a blanky and not playing with the really fun stuff.
Thanks for your effort and time as it is really appreciated and has helped to learn so much and saved me tons of time and money.
I don't use any other forums that make you jump thru the many hoops, I am used to YT and being easy to use I continue. Would it make that great a difference if younger folks don't post.Will they not grow into it? As an example I don't post on teen board because there is nothing for me there. In time the younger generation grows towards different interests and some will be on YT. When as a child you do child things and when an adult you do adult things.
you are doing a fantastic job. some change is ok. but if is not broke don't fix. 10-4
Maybe you could run a redundant or mirrored configuration. Posts go to both. People use what they want.
Do what you must. I'll stick around.
Do what you must. If the new software would make it easier for you to maintain the site, by all means do it.
Donna from Mo
I like simple and yt is a great place to visit and thank you for your time and hard work.
49, happily married 27years, father of three great kids.....
Kim,
Based upon the other 18 posts in response to this question there is only one certainty; you will never be able to make everyone happy, regardless of your choice. At this point I think you should look at the approach you think will make the site more successful long-term. If you need to make changes in the functionality of the site, make certain that all current users have some sort of online training that will help them navigate through the changes. Most people will complain when anything changes, so I don't think I would postpone needed changes simply because people want things to remain the same.
Tim Carter
The thing I like about the newer type forums is the loopholes you have to jump through. I think requiring a username to post (not read) should be mandatory. It should be tied to a legitimate email address. This makes spammers, porn posters and general hell-raisers a little less like to do so, and banning them would be easier.
Jay (ND)
one feature that the allischalmers.com forum has is a activity listing that puts any threads with recent activity at top. It seems to work OK. Only downside is that sometimes if you go away for a few days you have to search for an old thread you were following since they change order fast. They all have up and downs.
Kim, You run a nice simple site and if it takes a bunch of work to change it probably ain't worth it yet.
Keep it up - Rick in IN
Kim-
I am an old fart by many defintions, but am very computer literate. Built my first one in teh mid-sixties out of telephone relays - it weighte over a thousand pounds and was capable of adding 12-bit signed numbers and doing two's complement. How 'bout that for an ALU?
Anywya, I use a lot of different software to access many things. I happen to like the YT site more than most. For one thing, I am a captive of the telco at home and your code, unlike the more 'modern' boards is much faster over a slow connection. Unfortunately, I really have few options living in the boondocks to get a faster connection as statellite's latency is not compatible with VPN.
That said, you do a wonderful job with the Forum, dealing wiht all manner of folks with grace and aplomb beyond your tender years. While I have a defintie preference, this is indeed your 'baby' and I am tickled that you are so generous with your time to support this community.
Thankyou ...
If the registration process is a primary concern I think you can relax. WWW world is leaving this site behind and registering is not a big deal. Spontaneity will not suffer once registered! By the way, this is a great web site, good luck!
either way, this site and the forum uses are amazing, but I would definitely support the 'newer' style forums. thanks for the great site.
Kim-looking from the far side of the ol-fart hill ( after all, I'm 50) we can cope with change when it is to our advantage. I think the comfort of being able to click on to what we need in our sleep will be hard to change, but we all had to learn once anyway. This is a very valuable tool for all us old iron people, and my hats off for the time you put in. Do what is in ALL our best interest. Thanks.
Make the move Kim, it would be worse to be left behind in the dust of old technology. Some of us old timers still make a living with computers and we'll work with the less computer old timers to help them along. And don't forget that we usually get hard headed and stubborn as we get along in years, and no stoopid computer is a gonna whup on me!
Ramrod
I've seen a problem like this on another forum I belong to. You might want to look into updating just the name part. It sounds like your getting a lot of spam and other junk because "guests" can post. Requiring everyone to register will help eliminate that. That way you can't post unless you register a name.
I have been pondering this subject since Kim Posted.
I sense She is in a position she has to move on to more modern software. We support her in this as a wise business move for her and survival of YT.
I also feel a great deal of confidence in her ability to keep it the greatest website on earth.
5 years ago when I first found YT! Someone was talking about recovering from a Skillet wound!
Curiously I stayed to find out Just what happens here on YT.
I'm still here!
Kim
You said it all in the second paragraph
Your call, Go ahead, we will deal with it. My 2 cents is to avoid falling behind with software, it makes the eventual, inevitable, unavoidable upgrade much more painful for the users. The most vocal opponents to change are usually silenced when they realize how much better the new stuff works.
Hey, don't forget that some of us who own and use tractors live in the country. As in Rural. As in no cable TV, no DSL, no high speed nothing, just pokey old reliable Dial-up. Please don't make this site a "graphics rich" experience that takes all night to load one page. That may lead to the old timers leaving and they are the ones with the knowledge!
jb
I have lurked around here for a long time, posted to the Farmall forum, and bought stuff from the online store and the classifieds. It is a great site!
I have also been over at tractorbynet.com since it's inception; I was in the first 75 members when it used to be a Kubota only site. These two sites are the ones I consistently come back to daily.
Based on my expierience on the other site, update this one! Tractorbynet has seen a number of upgrades over the years, and has stayed current. A few people had some minor problems with the upgrades, but for the most part it was simple for the end user. And, it made a big difference for the folks who did the work, hosting and administrating the site.
You work on the site, administer it daily, probably hourly... Update it. We all appreciate all your hard work! Make it so you don't have to work so hard, and have some time to enjoy your own site.
I have lurked around here for a long time, posted to the Farmall forum, and bought stuff from the online store and the classifieds. It is a great site!
I have also been over at tractorbynet.com since it's inception; I was in the first 75 members when it used to be a Kubota only site. These two sites are the ones I consistently come back to daily.
Based on my expierience on the other site, update this one! Tractorbynet has seen a number of upgrades over the years, and has stayed current. A few people had some minor problems with the upgrades, but for the most part it was simple for the end user. And, it made a big difference for the folks who did the work, hosting and administrating the site.
You work on the site, administer it daily, probably hourly... Update it. We all appreciate all your hard work! Make it so you don't have to work so hard, and have some time to enjoy your own site.
RobertN
Yes, PLEASE update your software. It has always seemed awkward to me to navigate through a thread, with its branches and sub-branches. And in reverse order, yet!
- An occasional user
Hi Kim,
I've been using YtMag for about 9yrs now and like the way you run it now.
I do use other websites with the more modern software and other than having to read a topic from the bottom to the top, I don't see a problem from a user point of view.
I think you need to keep it the way you want it as your the one that has to do the house cleaning and in 9yrs I haven't seen alot of people that complain about how the website is set up now.
There is a total different class of people who use YtMag than use the other forums. I see less problems on YtMag than at any other website I visit, so your doing something correct that the others are not.
Thank you for your hard work!
T_Bone
Its the content we are all after. I think if you where to put back up the new software site, but told everyone please start working with it giving them time to adjust. And let those who get the site help those who get confussed. It could fly. Look how many people found and use your blog. Its hard to make everyone happy all of the time.
I guess I'm an old phart at 58. I participate in a couple of other forums (fora?) and they are all a little different. I say do whatever is best for you. Something new is quickly gotten used to and pretty soon we'll think it has always been that way. Might add a little excitement to the place to have a big change. It would be fun.
Interesting responses. I belong to several other forums and would have to say that the comment about the lack of graphics rich webpages is what makes these forums so attractive. There is nothing worse than watching the number of pictures or objects on a page tick down as your waiting for it to load. That said, my advice would be not to allow pictures in signatures on new forum software and to avoid avatars also. This would probably make a lot of people happy and speed things up for the dialup crowd.
Excellent site. It is by far my most visited site every day. Thanks Kim!
Steve
Kim: I think you answered your own question in the next to last paragragh. " Vibrant virtual community " - " 70-80 year olds able to post / process is simple "
The harder it is to post the more "tractor smart / computer not so smart" folks that will give up. The current software will just let you hit a button to reply, thats easy. I know it's a PITA for you but worth it for the site.
Keep up the good work!!!
- Steve
PS: You and Chris need to come to the Portland, IN show next year!!
Steve Sewell
Albany, Ohio USA
sewell@ohio.edu
sewell@atis.net
I mostly lurk, but I've been frequenting this site since about 1998. I honestly don't understand the reluctance to upgrade. I hang out on a couple of other forums with more modern software, and really appreciate the benefits they offer. I find two features in those sites particularly helpful. First is the fact that a newly replied message gets bumped to the top of the list. That allows things that are interesting or important to be readily available. It's frustrating to see the rare important post on Tales slide off of the spreader, never to be seen again. Another useful feature I've seen is that the text of the original message pops up when you move the cursor over the heading. This gives you a good idea if you want to open the thread without taking the time to actually open it - it's a great feature for those with dial-up connections. Anyway, I find the newer software to be even easier to use than that on YT, so I remain perplexed at the reluctance to change. Nevertheless, I really enjoy YT in spite of the increasingly antiquated user interface. Thanks for all of your hard work!
Tony in Bama
I mostly lurk, but I've been frequenting this site since about 1998. I honestly don't understand the reluctance to upgrade. I hang out on a couple of other forums with more modern software, and really appreciate the benefits they offer. I find two features in those sites particularly helpful. First is the fact that a newly replied message gets bumped to the top of the list. That allows things that are interesting or important to be readily available. It's frustrating to see the rare important post on Tales slide off of the spreader, never to be seen again. Another useful feature I've seen is that the text of the original message pops up when you move the cursor over the heading. This gives you a good idea if you want to open the thread without taking the time to actually open it - it's a great feature for those with dial-up connections. Anyway, I find the newer software to be even easier to use than that on YT, so I remain perplexed at the reluctance to change. Nevertheless, I really enjoy YT in spite of the increasingly antiquated user interface. Thanks for all of your hard work
Change it or leave it......
Do what ever is easier for you to maintain.
Kim,
Thank you for your time and trouble maintaining this site....
I like it the way it is because it works well with dial-up, which I am stuck with.
If you must change, please try to limit graphics and etc that slow the loading of pages.
I tried the new forum software and it was so slow that I decided it wasn't worth my time to wait for it to load the pages.
I was very diappointed that you were going to change it and felt like I was losing my family when I couldn't read the posts.
Thanks again !
Gary
Older isn't that bad.. as long as you can keep it running.
I still have a single 'node' of a dial-up BBS running at my house. In the 80's and 90'2 I had as many as 4 nodes up..That's back when the internet was still 'college' stuff to most people. Ran a variety of software... even started it on a commie 64 then migrated to an xt.. then a 286, 386, and then a 486.. in fact.. it's still on a 486 50 running desqview.. w/ 8 megs ram.. Maximus pc for software.
Whatever you do.. I'm sure eventually everyone will 'fall in'.. just some of us 'farts' are gonna grumble..
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